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#1
11-11-2009, 10:06 PM
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DRAGON 800 clutching ideas........
Hi guys..came over from snowest..figured I would get a dragon clutch thread going ...so far this is the best I have found (just so everyone knows..I am by no means a clutching guru..just got lucky trying a few things)performance wise with my 08 D-8 163 dragon(this is last seasons setup)i run slp single, full slp vents, powder valves,19/42 gears..elevation wise I ride from sea level up to a high of 8000 ft.....clutch specs are : 62/42/.46 helix, stock secondary spring(160/240), 3 delrin washers, slp green/pink primary spring, slp 68 gram mtx weights with 2 grams in the belly and 1 gram in the tip...primary clutch clearence is .020, with this setup I pull a max of 8450 rpm(this rpm on the 08 and 09 updates with the slp single is where I found best on hill performance, anything under 8300 and performance really tappered off(totally oposite of what most of the Dyno sheets say)about every 3000 ft. of elevation change I need to adjust rivit weight in the mtx's to keep rpm's where I want them but I have ridden from 1500 ft all the way up over 6000 ft without changing and rpms went from 8550 at low elevation down to 8300 at high(pretty decent for no changes) So far I have not ridden the 10 update(as well as a few other mods to my sled) but any clutching changes needed I will post up...hopefully a few more guys who posted their setups on that thread will come add theirs here...........
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#2
11-12-2009, 04:41 PM
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Great thread idea. I know very little about Clutching. When I say that I mean I know how they work to a certain degree and now some parts in the clutch. So basically I don't know a damn thing. The thing is that you have start somewhere cause one day I would like to be able to be my own clutching genius so I can get the most out of the sleds I buy.
So first off where do I start to look so I can get better performance out of my clutches? Is it the weight? springs? shims? what? May different gears help? Any of you guys that know a little about clutching, share your knowledge.. Im all ears
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#3
11-13-2009, 01:15 AM
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#4
11-13-2009, 08:23 AM
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Might also consider having your clutch balanced once you get it dialed in. Indy Dan of Indy Specialties (651-388-9041) did mine and it was amazing after he explained the impact a few grams off made, those grams turned into pounds at 8400 RPM. I think many issues especially crank issues can be avoided with a balanced clutch.
I also went with the heavier primary cover and "Quick Adjust" from Hi-Tech Engineering (320-693-9289). The quick adjust allows you to maintain the .020 primry belt clearance that AK referred to above with an allen wrench. No disassembly required. The cover and q/a would not be needed until you "boost" your hp numbers up a bit. Thanks for getting the thread going AK. EW 
Last edited by EricW; 11-13-2009 at 08:31 AM.
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#5
11-13-2009, 10:02 PM
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#6
11-16-2009, 08:36 AM
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The adjuster is a stand alone unit that will work on your OEM cover. The thicker cover is a separate piece that you won't need in lightly modded situations.
I dont remember the price, bought a lot of stuff on that build, give him a shout. He was great to talk with about clutching. EW
__________________
"My strength is the strength of ten for my heart is pure"
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#7
11-22-2009, 08:46 AM
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eric do you have plenty of room between your side panel and the clutch cover? im not to familar with poo
 i know on my cat when i put the extra thick cover on it would come in contact with the side panel. i also think that snow would push the side panel into the clutch.
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#8
02-07-2010, 05:41 PM
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AKSNOWRIDER 01-27-2009 08:58 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- question for those who clutched their D-8's Just wondering how your sleds are working now with your changes? anyone find big improvments/get em totally dialed in now?Or still having issues? On my 08 D-8 163 with slp single, 19/42 gears,VF-3 reeds,slp intake kit and vents, I have tried a few new things(new primary spring and 2 helix shims added for this ride) and as of 1- 80 mile ride this weekend this is what my setup is:... Carls 62/42/.46 helix stock secondary spring(black/purple) 3-delrin washers 2-slp .70 thick spring shims(reducing initial angle length from .46 to .36) slp green/pink spring(160/340) slp mtx 68 gram weights with 2 grams tip and 1 gram in the belly sled engages at 4200 rpm max rpm 8400 at 4000 ft elevation(with slp single pipe) So far this is the hardest pulling setup I have found of all the stuff I have tried.best track speed on a good steep climb in powder snow was 51 mph on average it pulls 44- 46 mph..( a few weeks ago in really good champayne powder this setup minus the shims and with slp blue pink primary spring pulled a best track speed of 57 mph at 8450(repeated climbs yeiled same results)..am very happy with this setup.is very responsive and great back shift and almost zero belt heat(although I did pull strings on my belt this weekend but it had over 1100 miles on it so will monitor new belt to insure there is not a problem.. Ron 01-28-2009 05:49 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clutching Good report Mike, it's so much more fun when a sled is "dialed". At altitude I haven't been able to find a setup that lets you run high R's with good clutch performance. Would kill for your HP, ha ha, ours are probably more like your good running 6's. I finally started fabing weights to change the location of the mass and actually went the other direction....heavier weights, slight drop in R's. But like yours, my sled, is freaking aswome. Testing a stocker and piped sled tomorrow, might be selling these things soon. My engagement is about 4000 and running 8150 at 8000' & 8200 at 5000'. Found that I now have much less change in performance as I change altitude or snow conditions, ice cold clutches. I'm running all stock except for weights and a Carl's helix like yours, no shim washers. These things must have a very broad power band.  AKSNOWRIDER 01-28-2009 05:58 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Ron (Post 1214230) Good report Mike, it's so much more fun when a sled is "dialed". At altitude I haven't been able to find a setup that lets you run high R's with good clutch performance. Would kill for your HP, ha ha, ours are probably more like your good running 6's. I finally started fabing weights to change the location of the mass and actually went the other direction....heavier weights, slight drop in R's. But like yours, my sled, is freaking aswome. Testing a stocker and piped sled tomorrow, might be selling these things soon. My engagement is about 4000 and running 8150 at 8000' & 8200 at 5000'. Found that I now have much less change in performance as I change altitude or snow conditions, ice cold clutches. I'm running all stock except for weights and a Carl's helix like yours, no shim washers. These things must have a very broad power band. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you do market them RON I will take the first set...the only reason for the shims was to shorten the initial(too cheap to go buy another helix with this economy)..but it did answer my question on if the initial was to long...am waiting to hear about RON's Clutch shop... 800xtreme 01-28-2009 06:24 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron/Mike - Have either of you tried Belly Buster wts? I know Carl's likes them, in fact I would have though Mike would have already had them since he is using their helix and spring set-up. My curiosity lies in what works better....SLP MTX or Belly Buster? Also, as I am sure you are aware Mike, the shims also increase your initial secondary spring tension 6-10lbs. AKSNOWRIDER 01-28-2009 06:53 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by 800xtreme (Post 1214328) Ron/Mike - Have either of you tried Belly Buster wts? I know Carl's likes them, in fact I would have though Mike would have already had them since he is using their helix and spring set-up. My curiosity lies in what works better....SLP MTX or Belly Buster? Also, as I am sure you are aware Mike, the shims also increase your initial secondary spring tension 6-10lbs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yes , I have belly busters, series 10,series 11 and the mtx's...so far best performance regardless of what else I have changed has been with mtx's...and yes putting the shims in raised sec. spring pressure(as well as cutting the angle down from 62) but wanted to isolate the engagment /mid range/ setup snow feel I have with this helix...I think the ideal helix for these sleds with the slp single is a 60/42/.36 cut and a 62/42/.36 cut(the 62/42/ cut I have dialed for champayne powder but feel there is more there on setup snow)..I can reinstall stock helix with any setup I have tried and after adding weight to get the rpms right be left feeling and seeing (on mph memory)that I loose track speed on that first 50 ft of acceleration(plus it trenches)..overall I am very satisfied with the clutching..but when I know that some is left on the table I have to try and get it ... 800xtreme 01-28-2009 07:16 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike... Did you re-shim for the MTX's? I have a set that I want to try on my 685. I am currently running 10 series wts now, and from what i have been told, with the MTX's I would need to re-shim. I guess it all depends on what kind of clearance I have right now. ALOT of oem clutches come with too much clearance so the MTX's might be perfect... Trying to find the best of both worlds can be a challange. Typically for backcountry riding it is better to have more spring pressure and a little less helix. BUT, you will loose some acceleration/upshift. For simply drag racing on hardpacked snow, a softer spring with a STEEP helix is the way to go (ie 74-44-46). Of course your backshift will never be there. By the way...how is AK these days? I spent 25 years in Healy and Fairbanks. I make it back at least once a year to hunt or fish...there is NO place like AK  AKSNOWRIDER 01-28-2009 05:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by 800xtreme (Post 1214473) Mike... Did you re-shim for the MTX's? I have a set that I want to try on my 685. I am currently running 10 series wts now, and from what i have been told, with the MTX's I would need to re-shim. I guess it all depends on what kind of clearance I have right now. ALOT of oem clutches come with too much clearance so the MTX's might be perfect... Trying to find the best of both worlds can be a challange. Typically for backcountry riding it is better to have more spring pressure and a little less helix. BUT, you will loose some acceleration/upshift. For simply drag racing on hardpacked snow, a softer spring with a STEEP helix is the way to go (ie 74-44-46). Of course your backshift will never be there. By the way...how is AK these days? I spent 25 years in Healy and Fairbanks. I make it back at least once a year to hunt or fish...there is NO place like AK -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- with the mtx,s I had to reshim back out to stock setting...(was set up for belly busters) the mtx's are built to take up the average over shimming and get it down close(mine came out at .20 with the same thickness shim stack it had new)..yea I guess I am being picky..cause by all who have ridden it it rips..but I know I am leaving just a tiny bit on the table..and since I enjoy tinkering..well lets just say it is an interesting exersize in paiteince..yea hard to beat AK..I live in anchorage been here since 71....left a few times to help family out a time or two but mostly been here...
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#9
02-07-2010, 05:42 PM
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Mike,
What was it about the belly busters that you did not like...or perhaps another way to phrase it...why do you prefer the MTX's over the belly busters? Better midrange, better hole shot, more consistency, more tunability, etc? AKSNOWRIDER 01-28-2009 08:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by 800xtreme (Post 1217442) Mike, What was it about the belly busters that you did not like...or perhaps another way to phrase it...why do you prefer the MTX's over the belly busters? Better midrange, better hole shot, more consistency, more tunability, etc? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- overall it is everything...the belly busters work good..alot better then stock for sure..but it is so nice to be able to run one set of weights for several big elevation changes..as well as the ability to fine tune on the trail(takes me about 15 minutes to pull the weights and change rivits out in the woods( i bought slp's tool and it works good)), plus if you change weights for a specific setup(such as 1 for sea level and one for 6000-8000 ft you dont have to reshim the primary(or at least I havent, I had to put back in the same amount of shim I removed to run the bellybusters) and I really like how well they work from engagement to full throttle...since I do like to tinker I will keep experimenting to see what works best but so far for me these have worked the best...what led me down this road was last winter while the sled ran good it felt lacking..(running slp single at 8000-8100 rpms)then on here everyone said oh the D-8 is junk..no power and such and that surprised me cause first ride(new stock sled)on mine I rode with 2 new Xps and had no problems going where they did..once I took all my tuning stuff and went and found a big hill and started trying things I found that bringing up the rpms really lit up the sled(ended up running best at 8450)everyone questions why I run such high rpms and now some others have started doing it and finding the same results.. and the difference in the sled is amazing...thats why I check all the clutching threads..just trying to share what has worked for me..and I know what works for me wont work for everyone..but it might just help one guy..mike 800xtreme 01-29-2009 05:51 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- good info Mike and I completely agree with your findings on rpm. Over and over again I have discovered the same thing - a little more rpm makes all the difference in the world. If you have ever had a sled that was a little under in rpm, it has a hard time getting out of its own way. I am eager to hear how Ron's wts work out for him this weekend. I am going to give the MTX's a shot and see what happens. -jesse AKSNOWRIDER 01-29-2009 05:58 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by 800xtreme (Post 1218194) good info Mike and I completely agree with your findings on rpm. Over and over again I have discovered the same thing - a little more rpm makes all the difference in the world. If you have ever had a sled that was a little under in rpm, it has a hard time getting out of its own way. I am eager to hear how Ron's wts work out for him this weekend. I am going to give the MTX's a shot and see what happens. -jesse -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yes, ron said it would be next week till we know..more testing of stuff for me..lol 800poodragon 01-29-2009 07:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Ron (Post 1214230) Good report Mike, it's so much more fun when a sled is "dialed". At altitude I haven't been able to find a setup that lets you run high R's with good clutch performance. Would kill for your HP, ha ha, ours are probably more like your good running 6's. I finally started fabing weights to change the location of the mass and actually went the other direction....heavier weights, slight drop in R's. But like yours, my sled, is freaking aswome. Testing a stocker and piped sled tomorrow, might be selling these things soon. My engagement is about 4000 and running 8150 at 8000' & 8200 at 5000'. Found that I now have much less change in performance as I change altitude or snow conditions, ice cold clutches. I'm running all stock except for weights and a Carl's helix like yours, no shim washers. These things must have a very broad power band. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope your testing goes well.  ;; Outlaw Addict 01-29-2009 09:30 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK.... I have not been around Team secondarys before at all. We have always run Cat Secondarys. What do the delrin washers do? or the additon of the washers. I havent had the clutch apart yet to look things over, maybe that would answer my question too... AKSNOWRIDER 01-29-2009 09:36 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Outlaw Addict (Post 1221436) OK.... I have not been around Team secondarys before at all. We have always run Cat Secondarys. What do the delrin washers do? or the additon of the washers. I havent had the clutch apart yet to look things over, maybe that would answer my question too... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- hey outlaw, the delrins go on each end of the spring and allow the secondary to move without binding..really helps the back shift..the shims go under the snapring and lower the installed height of the rollers thus lowering the length of the initial angle ,as well as lowering the angle and slightly increases the spring preload...the shims I only use as a test for checking how initial length is affecting upshift...now that I have tried them I will remove and either change helix initial length or use a different aproach to adjust around what the results showed... Outlaw Addict 01-30-2009 03:25 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe you mentioned, that you had 3 in. You have 2 on one side and 1 on the other? I am a little nervous never having worked with a Team before. I dont like venturing to far out of my comfort zone... We are putting this sled on the snow this weekend and are going to be testing different set ups like crazy. AKSNOWRIDER 01-30-2009 06:01 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Outlaw Addict (Post 1221714) I believe you mentioned, that you had 3 in. You have 2 on one side and 1 on the other? I am a little nervous never having worked with a Team before. I dont like venturing to far out of my comfort zone... We are putting this sled on the snow this weekend and are going to be testing different set ups like crazy.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I also added a delrin under the spring cup(some do it some dont) have run with 2 or 3 doesnt really matter although 3 does raise the spring press a touch more..dont be nervous..the team is super easy to work with..biggest thing with it is when you pull the roller plate it has a blind spline so be sure and mark the plate and shaft real good so it is easier to put back togeather... AKSNOWRIDER 01-31-2009 03:10 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by Outlaw Addict (Post 1221714) I believe you mentioned, that you had 3 in. You have 2 on one side and 1 on the other? I am a little nervous never having worked with a Team before. I dont like venturing to far out of my comfort zone... We are putting this sled on the snow this weekend and are going to be testing different set ups like crazy.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OA, how did it go with your clutching?
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#10
02-07-2010, 05:43 PM
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wellfed777 01-31-2009 05:17 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AK i've been thinking about mtx weights for some time i have a 04 edge 800 ported single with 18/40 gears and 64g / yellow/green front spring in the secondary i have a red/pink spring and i've been playing around with a 58-38.46/58-40.46 and a 64-40.46/64-44.46 but i was thinking that the 62 might be perfect in the deep the 64 is great i can feel it up shifting pulling like crazy but in oregon the heavy snow is more typical and it wont hold Rs with the 64? also i run 8100 rpms but would it be better with more? got any tips? thanks wellfed theultrarider 01-31-2009 05:24 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try a black/purple in the secondary instead wellfed. That pink/ red is too much on top. I run an 03 escape used to be a single and now twins. After changing out the sec spring, you will most likely want to drop to 62's..Hard to say. That red/pink holds back your upshift alot, but doesn't backshift much better than the black/purple. AKSNOWRIDER 01-31-2009 05:33 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by theultrarider (Post 1225286) Try a black/purple in the secondary instead wellfed. That pink/ red is too much on top. I run an 03 escape used to be a single and now twins. After changing out the sec spring, you will most likely want to drop to 62's..Hard to say. That red/pink holds back your upshift alot, but doesn't backshift much better than the black/purple. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think what tim(theultrarider) suggest is where I would start..try to adjust with spring pressure rather then weights(I hate pulling weight cause it is easy to get where the weight is too light to get full shift out..small changes in spring rate makes a big diff in performance... as for rpms I always try to run right at the top of what engine/pipe manufacturer reccomends(on mine slp says 8300 but what I found with a lot of onhill testing was it just ran better and better with raising rpms up to 8450) this is totally opposite of what the dyno shops have found but the on hill in deep snow performance says it is better... wellfed777 01-31-2009 05:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sounds good more testing boss thanks guys ADRENALINE 01-31-2009 05:46 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aksnorider, I am new here (3-4 months) but not new to snowmobiling. Where do you get the delrin washers for the secondary? First I have heard of shimming the secondary, or at least on the team, never played with it too much. Got a part #? I have an 07 600HO with SLP pipe and can. MTX weights (didn't have to shim) and airbox. It pulls so hard you better hang on, takes my brothers 08 700 in all areas. Got a buddy of mine who used to live in AK, now he lives in Seattle (4Z). Thanks for the info, might give the shims a try. Maybe PM me back? wellfed777 01-31-2009 07:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you can get the derlin washers from slp or maybe WPS SLP also sells the shims check out the web site www.startinglineproducts.com Ron 01-31-2009 08:03 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted by wellfed777 (Post 1225263) AK i've been thinking about mtx weights for some time i have a 04 edge 800 ported single with 18/40 gears and 64g / yellow/green front spring in the secondary i have a red/pink spring and i've been playing around with a 58-38.46/58-40.46 and a 64-40.46/64-44.46 but i was thinking that the 62 might be perfect in the deep the 64 is great i can feel it up shifting pulling like crazy but in oregon the heavy snow is more typical and it wont hold Rs with the 64? also i run 8100 rpms but would it be better with more? got any tips? thanks wellfed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We ran the Bl/Red with 66-44-.46 on our 03-05 Edge 8's but they were a little weak on back shift. Very good drag race sled though. Try a helix with a 40 angle and the Bl/Purple spring for your driven, then tune the drive clutch. You should be able to pull 10-64's and the Almond (or equivalent) spring or at least be close. The initial angle 64, 66 etc. is gone at 12-18 MPH so R's are governed mostly by the fixed angle...40, 42, 44 etc.-the last number is just the length of the first angle in inches, ie .46".
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